Where I Cram My Ideas


Tuesday, July 10, 2007

Colorado - Threats, and how to Respond

I found a link in a post on Pharyngula today to an article in the Denver Post. The article described a situation today where

"University of Colorado police are investigating a series of threatening messages and documents e-mailed to and slipped under the door of evolutionary biology labs on the Boulder campus."
A religious-affiliated group (undisclosed by the police) identified itself in the messages. Police Commander Brad Wiesley summarized the notes as basically saying "Anybody who doesn't believe in our religious belief is wrong and should be taken care of."

"What's written on paper is what's written on paper," Wiesley said, voicing a belief I share with and attribute to Alonzo Fyfe that the proper response to words is words; to legislation is legislation; to action is action. In this situation, what has been exchanged is not only words, but threats. The phrase 'taken care of,' in this context, cannot be mistaken for anything but a threat - especially when the content of the messages was apparently strong enough to prompt a police investigation.

A threat is a suggestion of action. I believe a police investigation and, hopefully, punishment, is the proper response to these events.

This sort of action is deserving of a great deal of condemnation from both the religious and the secular community. It is unacceptable to threaten educators for teaching a widely accepted theory that does not cause any harm. It is the University of Colorado staff's right to teach in peace - and, I'd argue, responsibility to teach the theory of evolution.

In true rhetorical fashion, don't expect the organizations that decry, for instance, perceived bias against ID advocates in higher education, or that claim Christianity is persecuted in America, to make any mention of this event. The more responsible Christian groups that hear about this article will take the time to at least wag a finger at the group making the threats. I'll be interested to see what develops.

In other news, the Denver Post entertained me with a story of a 2-acre fire ignited by a flaming bird.

11 comments:

Dan Marvin said...

Of course it is wrong to threaten someone. Just because someone does something in the name of God doesn't mean he is "of" God. The Bible says to evaluate everything to see if it is of God by their fruit, good tree = good fruit a bad tree can never bear good fruit. We don’t even have to address the Catholic Church and the mass pedophiles to determine the fruit, it is obvious.

In Proverbs 9:7 it says "He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot." We are not to reject wickedness but to witness to wicked to help the unsaved understand God's Glory and Grace, not to reject and scorn or Judge. We all deserve hell and it is only through God's Grace we are saved.

The statement in my opinion should of been written like this "Anybody who doesn't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ their belief is wrong and will be taken care of by God."

The Bible describes hell as weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, darkness, flames, burning, torments, everlasting punishment. Hell is Forever, as a place of anguish and incredible torment such a horrible place of eternal judgment to show us how horrible sin is to God. Everyone is given the chance to accept Christ as the savior, for some even hundreds of times.

If you run out in the middle of the highway and say I don't believe in trucks it doesn't mean you will not get run over. If you jump out of a window screaming "I don't believe in gravity" doesn't mean you will not get hurt. What matters is the truth. God does exist and He came as a man here on earth to pay for all of your sins. By sins I mean the Ten Commandments which are God's law. The law was made as a mirror for us. In the same way, we don't realize what a bad state we are in until we look into the "mirror" of the Ten Commandments.

Have you stolen, lied, dishonored your mother and father etc. then you broke his laws and the penalty is death. Rev 21:8 all liars have there part in the lake of fire. But God doesn't want that to happen to you and I don't either. I don't want you to drink and drive but if you do then you will go to jail, and if you lie then you will spend eternity in Hell. Now someone came to pay your fine so you wouldn't have to spend time in jail. Jesus came to pay your fine for you so that justice would be satisfied and you could go free. All you have to do is Repent which means turn away from sin and trust Jesus that he did what he did for your salvation. Pray to God and ask his forgiveness and he will give you a life without death and you will not spend forever in hell. Then read your Bible everyday and stay in his word.

God bless you two

For Him,
Dan

G-man said...

Thanks for the comment.

Why is it wrong to threaten someone, Biblically speaking? Not sure if I ever heard that Bible verse.

Haha, please don't go criticizing the Catholic church. Evangelicals and non-denominationals, like yourself I'm sure, have a higher divorce rate than the liberal church denominations and the atheist/agnostic group in America. They also include such groups as the Westboro Baptist Church and the very group in question in this blog. If that isn't 'your' bad fruit, then don't blame the Catholic Church for pedophiles.

Hell is just there to show how horrible sin is to God? Seriously? It's not there to punish the wicked? I mean, who does God need to demonstrate this to, and why couldn't He just show people while they're alive instead of waiting until it's too late and the demonstration is pointless?

"Everyone is given the chance to accept Christ as the savior, for some even hundreds of times."
_Prove it, without using the Bible.

I'm still not sure I want to repent to God until I know that God is good. How do I know that God is good, without succumbing to circular reasoning?

Dan Marvin said...

"It's not there to punish the wicked?"

Well, that too of course.

"They also include such groups as..." I agree actually we all fall short of God's glory and we all deserve hell. We are born into this fallen creaion. It is his grace that we get saved and no other reason. The answer is not religion but a true relationship with God. I give you this, If you belive you must go to church.

"why couldn't He just show people while they're alive instead of waiting until it's too late" The fact is he has and it is called the Bible and all the things you need to know about salvation is in there. What you said reminds me of the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. He needed more to prove hell existed and God said you have the Bible (moses and the prophets) and if they don't believe that they will not believe anything else.

"Everyone is given the chance to accept Christ as the savior, for some even hundreds of times."_Prove it, without using the Bible.

OK how many times in your life did someone talk to you about God? the number you are thinking of is probably a good average of most atheist such as yourself. (my opinion) There will be no excuse of "I didn't know that Jesus was the savior"

"How do I know that God is good"

I just don't know if there even will be free will in heaven. I know we won't want to leave and be tempted to leave. We can appreciate Gods goodness in the presence of evil. Unlike Adam who didn't know evil, Satan who didn't know evil, until they fell. We do! Because of it, we so appreciate his goodness and no matter what temptation that will come our way in heaven, if that could even happen, there would be no way, why? Because we knew how horrible evil was and now we can fully appreciate his goodness. The presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his righteousness, the presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his love, and how else could he show the character of love that loves enemies and sinners if there were none? God endures this horrible assault on his everlasting holiness; he endures the horrifying blaspheming, history of fallen beings, he suffers it, the imposition it is on his purity to display his wrath to the fullest extent, to put himself on everlasting display.

Why are we here? What is the theological answer? To give the text book answer, to glorify God and enjoy him ever more. How do you glorify God? Here is how, you sinner, go get saved. Get saved so God can be glorified, that's it; this is the purpose of this universe.

God knew we would sin, He knew we would rebel, He knew we would introduce evil, He knew it. So that he can send forth a savior born of a virgin, to live under the law to save us under the curse of the law so that, we can be a little trophy of his grace, he can always point to us as a testimony to his goodness. Read Ephesians 2:7

We wouldn't know how God is righteous as he is, everlastingly, and give him glory for it if it hadn't had of been for unrighteousness, we wouldn't know he's loving as he is if it hadn't been for sin, we wouldn't know he's holy if it weren't for judgment.

How holy is God? So holy that he must send out of his presence, everlastingly, anyone who is not fit. Why of all this? That he might make known the riches of his glory, that is, he did all of this in order that he might gather into heaven a redeemed humanity who would forever glorify him for all that he is.

Parts of that paraphrased from Todd Friel and Dr. John Macarthur

G-man said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
G-man said...

Thanks for responding, Dan. I hope I'm not trying your patience too much, but I really am interested in how we know that threatening people is wrong, from a Biblical perspective. I wasn't joking when I asked that question.

It's interesting that you'd bring up a 'true relationship with God.' I wonder if you know how long that particular doctrine has been around - I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that almost no Christian before the 20th century gave that concept the slightest thought.

I think I didn't get my point across, regarding hell. Basically, saying that hell is to demonstrate how horrible sin is is pointless - the people there don't care, the people in heaven don't care, and God doesn't need to show God's self anything, right?

And second, reading the Bible does not demonstrate the horrors of hell quite like hell does. Why wouldn't God provide us mortals with a more attention-grabbing warning, before its too late?

One final thought on the matter: I believe in restorative justice. Punishment, to me, seems pointless. Isn't it true that, if God wants all people to go to heaven, there will be some sort of second chance, in an effort to bring people back into the community? I mean, speaking for most atheists, we aren't anti-God; we simply don't have enough good reasons to believe. If God wants us to be saved, can we expect a chance - in an afterlife that, I imagine, would be quite real - to fulfill God's will?

"OK how many times in your life did someone talk to you about God?"
_Many times. I was a Christian for most of my life. However, I wasn't talking about me. I don't care about that. I'm talking about the other human beings. How do you know, without using the Bible, that they've been afforded a chance (a fair chance, even) to accept Christ?

If there's no free will in heaven, then why have free will on earth?

Wait a sec - you're saying that since we 'know' evil (or basically, since we feel that X is wrong) we know God is good? That seems silly, many people feel that things God is said to have done in the Bible are wrong. I don't think what we 'feel' as good/evil is a reliable source, do you?

...which brings up another question. If Adam didn't know evil, then how can God call his choice a sin?

"God endures this horrible assault on his everlasting holiness; he endures the horrifying blaspheming, history of fallen beings, he suffers it, the imposition it is on his purity to display his wrath to the fullest extent, to put himself on everlasting display."

_Three things:
1) God has nothing to prove to anything that matters.
2) God is omnipotent. I don't think 'suffering' is possible.
3) Everything that is, or has happened, is God's will, right? God didn't have to bring about this world - so every child who has suffered and died has done so because God wanted it to happen.

Now, as for the point of the universe being to glorify God... you're telling me that God, to prove His own greatness to Himself, created a universe in which He wanted ALL humans to go to heaven, but of which maybe 1% actually did. And, to accomplish this, God had to sacrifice God to God, so that God could forgive Mankind. Wow. The glory is overwhelming.


"We wouldn't know he's holy if it weren't for judgment."
_'Holy' originally meant something akin to 'set apart.' If God were holy, we'd expect Him to be quite set apart from humans; exhibiting very few of the signs of mere mortal beings - we wouldn't expect petty anger, frustration, mistakes, regret, weakness... for that matter, how can God be both infinitely just and infinitely merciful at the same time?

"How holy is God? So holy that he must send out of his presence, everlastingly, anyone who is not fit."

_Interesting... you believe, I imagine, that all mankind is born into original sin, correct? Allow me to present a line of reasoning. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Any who have sinned go to Hell. Therefore, any unborn children who are miscarried, abortions, and infants who have not accepted their 'personal relationship' with Christ burn in Hell. Does that sound about right?

Dan Marvin said...

"the people there don't care, the people in heaven don't care," People in heaven will be very sad because we know we tried so hard to get the word out and fell on deaf ears sometimes. People in hell will care also I believe.

"Why wouldn't God provide us mortals with a more attention-grabbing warning, before its too late?" like performing miracles and raising someone from the dead, you mean?

"How do you know, without using the Bible, that they've been afforded a chance" I don't, God said he would and I believe it. Jesus can't come back until the Gospel is preached to all 4 corners of this earth. That is what the bible says and I believe it, plainly.

"That seems silly, many people feel that things God is said to have done in the Bible are wrong." That doesn't matter, right? They are not the creator and I trust God as Judge without doubt. "Trust in the savior" is a prerequisite for salvation, true?

"I don't think what we 'feel' as good/evil is a reliable source, do you?" If you mean the Ten Commandments then I sure do. Romans 3:19

  "If Adam didn't know evil, then how can God call his choice a sin?"  Come on, your stretching my brain here. But I submit that he didn't know the consequences for evil like a young child wouldn't know the punishment for disobeying their parent until they get spanked... then they know right from wrong and the consequences from that point on.

"God has nothing to prove to anything that matters" Do you look for a successful outcome for things you create? Well I believe he does also.

"God is omnipotent. I don't think 'suffering' is possible." You don't think God can get sad or angry? The Bible says he does.

"so every child who has suffered and died has done so because God wanted it to happen." Yes true, but who said newborns go to hell? God is just and those babies will join their mothers in heaven, I believe, remember he is a Just God.  I don't want my kids to drink and drive but if they do then they will go to jail, and if they lie then, without a savior, they will spend eternity in hell.

In the 9th Commandment we can see the Holiness of God, because if you lie to a child, you might get away with it, if you lie to me, I might get mad, if you lie to your spouse, you might end up on the couch or divorced, if you lie to a police officer, you’re obstructing justice and you’ll go to jail, if you lie to a judge, it’s perjury and you’ll go to prison, even more strict still, if you lie to your government, you’re guilty of treason, and the punishment is death! The offense of a lie to God is so much more injurious and so much more condemning that the only just punishment for lying is eternal suffering.

"Now, as for the point of the universe being to glorify God...Wow. The glory is overwhelming." Yea I know, isn't it!

I believe, "Infinitely just" because of hell for the unrepentive wicked. "Infinitely merciful " because he gave his son as a sacrifice for us wicked sinners.

"Therefore, any unborn children who are miscarried, abortions, and infants who have not accepted their 'personal relationship' with Christ burn in Hell."

This is not Biblical! Remember he is a Just God and scripture states they are of God.  I believe that aborted children join their mothers when she goes to heaven after getting saved. Matthew 18:10,Psalm 139:13-16,Psalm 22:10, Isaiah 44:24,Psalm 27:10

You are asking the right questions and keep searching, Remember if you are faithful then God WILL manifest himself to you as promised in John 14:21. You must go to him on his terms with a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 51:17) not judgemental and doubtful and prideful.

Talk to him tonight and every night!

For Him,
Dan

G-man said...

Dan-

Sorry I took a bit to get back to you. It strikes me as a little strange that you'd say "People in heaven will be very sad [about those who didn't make it]," because Heaven is supposed to be a place of happiness - or at least that's what I've always been told. If they even have memories of their lives on earth, won't they be eternally upset that so many of those they loved continue to suffer endlessly, agonizingly, and infinitely?

Still, I think you missed the point of what I said. I said people wouldn't care about Hell as a *demonstration.* You took me to say that people wouldn't care that they or others were burning in Hell. That's not what I meant or said. I simply meant that calling Hell a demonstration of something makes no sense, because nobody in Hell cares about God demonstrating how horrible sin is. See what I mean now?

Moving on.

Yes, why don't we see miracles and raisings-from-the-dead? Now, you might say that they do happen, but what I want to know is why is there no evidence? Why, of all the weird, once-in-a-lifetime things that have been caught on videotape, do we have no such evidences?

Next question: Why is evangelism necessary? Does God really send all those who haven't heard the Word to Hell? Is that fair? Besides, the Gospel has been preached everywhere... so Jesus can return, right?

"That doesn't matter, right? They are not the creator and I trust God as Judge without doubt."
_Alright, you're back to square one. I asked how I can know that God is good without resorting to circular reasoning, and you said that since we 'feel' that there is good and bad, we 'know' God is good. Now you've admitted that what we 'feel' actually doesn't matter.

So you're back to the original question: "How do I know that God is good, without succumbing to circular reasoning?"

Sorry for stretching your brain about the Adam thing - but that's sort of the idea of being skeptical. So here's the idea... is it fair to be judged for doing wrong when you didn't even know something was wrong?

Let's say, for instance, that you get to Heaven and you find out that something you thought was innocent was wrong: "Dan, you slept on a feather pillow! Now burn!!!"

How would you respond? Now think of how Adam would respond: "Jeez Louise, Lord, I didn't even know what the concept 'right and wrong' was! And you judged not only me, but all my descendants for it?"

"Do you look for a successful outcome for things you create? Well I believe he does also."
_Well there's an interesting idea. See, the term 'holy' means 'set apart.' God, then, shouldn't act like a normal human being. So, regardless of whether or not I look for a successful outcome to my projects has nothing to do with how God feels on the issue, does it?

The reason lies are punished in this world is because they are injurious to other parties. If God is omnipotent, it's not exactly possible to harm Him, is it? In that case, He should be very concerned with restorative justice. If He wants ALL to enter the kingdom, it would at least be prudent to try a little harder after death. Otherwise, you'd have to presume that God doesn't want it all that much.


I'm used to hearing something like this: "God’s eyes are too pure to look on evil and He can tolerate no sin." Also, Romans 3:23 - "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Psalm 51:5 affirms that "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

So sure, it's Biblically supportable to say that unborn children go to Hell.
1. God cannot stand the presence of sin.
2. ALL have sinned (if unborn babies are humans, they count) and are sinful from conception.
3. Babies and unborn children are condemned to Hell.

How is this not Biblical?

"God is just and those babies will join their mothers in heaven, I believe, remember he is a Just God."
_Wait, remember that what you feel doesn't matter. Justice means that similar cases are dealt with similarly. If ALL have sinned, then ALL go to Hell unless they accept Jesus - which unborn children haven't done. A just God, then, would treat cases similarly and burn them too.

A final question: Would an infinitely just system let anybody get away with a crime? Would an infinitely merciful system condemn anybody?

Dan Marvin said...

"People in heaven will be very sad" Clarification- people on earth, before they get to heaven, will be sad. I don't understand how I am not going to be sad in heaven but I am only human am not to understand everything but you made a good point.

"because nobody in Hell cares about God demonstrating how horrible sin is" That is just it...they will care at that point. Jeffrey Dahmer reflected and had remorse for what he did in jail. See what I mean now?

I just thought of something, with your statement "Punishment, to me, seems pointless." I just concluded with logic and reasoning that you have no children, just a guess. Wait until your child runs into the street and almost gets hit by a car and then after you tell him not to do that he runs right back out into that same street and almost gets killed again. See if you believe in punishment at that point. It is only responsible parents who punish for the proper upbringing of their children.

Moving on.

"why is there no evidence?" There is and is called the Bible. That is what I meant originally also, that God gave us miracles and there were some 500 witnesses to Jesus' Resurrection and it was documented and passed by word of mouth until 2000 years later we are all still talking about it, now that is a miracle in itself don't you agree?

A lot of atheist talk about evidence of God and they all seem that the Bible is not historical evidence at all. You have heard of Julius Caesar and I am sure you believe that he existed right? Well there were 10 manuscripts of antiquity that explained who he was as we know him today. 10 that is it, in one language, everything we know today about him came from just those 10 manuscripts. Do you know how many manuscripts of antiquity about Jesus? Any guess?

The New Testament we have either in fragments or partials within 25 years, 40 years of events we have 5,300 partials or complete manuscripts in Greek (the original language) and 19,000 other languages. You want a reliable book and you believe Julius Caesar existed? You can believe that Jesus existed and he did exactly what it says in the Bible because you have eye witness accounts that were willing to die for it.

"Dan, you slept on a feather pillow! Now burn!!!" If he said beforehand not to sleep on feather pillows then I would understand why the harsh punishment, as he did with Adam.

"God, then, shouldn't act like a normal human being." Yea, but as you well know WE were made in HIS image and that is why we do the things we do. (look for a successful outcome for things you create)

"3. Babies and unborn children are condemned to Hell. How is this not Biblical?" I answered that already by the verses I presented. But some babies deserve hell because they would be evil their whole life. He is omniscient after all.

"A just God, then, would treat cases similarly and burn them too." And he will - Psalm 58:3 Look Jesus said in matthew 18:10 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." So I feel that the children are of God.

"Would an infinitely just system let anybody get away with a crime?" No

"Would an infinitely merciful system condemn anybody?" Yes (wthout repentace)

Good luck in your journey, I pray for you to understand Him. God bless, dude.

For Him,
Dan

G-man said...

"I just concluded with logic and reasoning that you have no children, just a guess. Wait until your child runs into the street and almost gets hit by a car and then after you tell him not to do that he runs right back out into that same street and almost gets killed again."

_Ah, good man! You've hit the nail on the head. The point of punishment is not to inflict pain and suffering on the subject - it's to change the person for the better.

That is precisely why the term 'restorative justice' makes sense. If it takes a kind of punishment to ensure that a person does not commit the same errors again, then that's fine... but punishment for the sake of punishment is pointless.

That being the case, what is the point of eternal punishment?

"There is and is called the Bible."
_I'm terribly sorry, but the Bible is not proof in this regard. That miracles are depicted in a literary work is no more meaningful than that unicorns are. It takes a proof far more substantial to establish that miracles and resurrections happen.

And yes, aspects of the Bible are historically accurate. I don't deny that. Again though, historical accuracy doesn't even suggest truth. The story of Troy as told in the Iliad is full of historical accuracy, but I don't believe all of those events happened for a moment - just to cite an example.

You mention eyewitness accounts. Is that really how God judges people? Based on how willing you are to trust what other people tell you? That is, almost by definition, unjust.

Oh, and I read those verses. The first one is confusing - each person has an angel? If so, then of course they see the face of God, nobody would argue against that. The second one says that babies were 'knitted together' in their mothers' wombs. Again, nothing that even remotely suggests they don't go to Hell. The third one says that 'you have been my God since birth,' but that actually equates an infant with a fully grown human being. That would seem to suggest, actually, that both are susceptible to burning in Hell. The final one says 'though my father and mother forsake me, the Lord will receive me,' which again says nothing. I will restate the syllogism here for clarification:

1. God cannot stand the presence of sin, and must relegate sinners to Hell.
2. ALL have sinned and are sinful from conception, unborn babies and young children included.
3. God cannot stand the presence of unborn babies and young children. Babies and unborn children are condemned to Hell.

To prove my exegesis wrong here, you must either challenge one of the premises (Prove that God can stand to look upon sin, or that some humans have not sinned) or challenge that the conclusion follows from the premises. I'd actually try for the first, because the conclusion does, indeed, follow.

As I already said, if all have sinned, then all deserve the same treatment. Therefore, any who have not accepted Jesus as personal savior go to Hell. This includes, obviously, young children and unborn babies. Are you starting to catch on?


Me: "Would an infinitely just system let anybody get away with a crime?"
You: "No"
_Then if God is infinitely just, nobody gets away with a crime.

Me: "Would an infinitely merciful system condemn anybody?"
You: "Yes"
_Really? Let's make sure we're operating on the same idea here... what do the words 'infinite' and 'mercy' mean when put one after another?

"God bless, dude."
_Not so fast, dude. I don't want blessings from someone unless I know he is good. For the third time, I pose you this question:


"How do I know that God is good, without succumbing to circular reasoning?"

I'd really like to know. You seem so confident that God is good.

Dan Marvin said...

"The point of punishment is not to inflict pain and suffering on the subject - it's to change the person for the better."

Good point, but lets say he keeps running out into the street and never does listen to me. One day he gets hit by a car and is killed and loses his life because he did not obey the authority of the parent then he loses his soul. Remember what I said earlier what heaven is? It will be the children who did listen to the Father and glorify him and the children gets to live and not lose their souls. Do you understand what I am struggling to get at? You lose your soul and die. There was no death until Adam disobeyed the authority of God. He ran out into the street in disobedience and got hit by that proverbial car. What a hard lesson it was for him, and what a hard lesson it would be for my son, even though he didn't know better. So I spank to show what it could have been. I bruise his butt but he doesn't lose his soul. Will hell be the same thing? I don't think so, I think hell is the car in this situation and the earth and life's lessons are the spankings.

"3. God cannot stand the presence of unborn babies and young children. Babies and unborn children are condemned to Hell."

One of the most often-used weapons in the skeptic’s arsenal is to seize statements from religious people that make God look like a cruel despot waiting to cast any and everyone into a torturous lake of eternal fire. However, this frequently lands the skeptic in a less-than-defensible position when the actual text of the Bible is consulted.

In 2 Samuel 12, King David’s newborn son fell terminally ill. After seven days, the child died. In verses 22 and 23, the Bible records that David said: “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” It is clear that David’s dead infant son would never return to this Earth, but David also said that one day, he would go to be with his son. Through inspiration, David documented that his own eternal destination was going to be “in the house of the Lord” (Psalm 23:6). Therefore, we can conclude that “the house of the Lord” would be the eternal destination of his infant son to whom David would one day go. King David was looking forward to the day when he would be able to meet his son in heaven. Absolutely nothing in this context gives any hint that the dead infant son’s soul would go to hell. Look I can throw verses at you all day saying the exact opposite of your view such as Matthew 18:3-5 and Luke 18:16-17.

n Ezekiel 18:20, the Bible says: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son.” Also, in Exodus 32, Moses pleaded with God to forgive the sins of the Israelites when he said: “Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written. And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book’ ” (Exodus 32:32-33). The Bible is plain in its teaching that babies do not inherit the sins of their parents. [One commonly misapplied scripture used to teach that infants inherit sin is Psalm 51:5-6, which has been dealt with in detail by Wayne Jackson (2000)

We don't have to agree with God to obey him, we are just to obey like a child to his father. He know better then us we are children that just want to play and he is the parent that knows better. Who are we to question his authority? By definition isn't your attitude towards God like a defiant brat. Remember Adam wanted to know what God knows so he went into the forbidden garden. So maybe punishment of sorts for us is that we are not to know all of life's mysteries. For us to know everything would put us on the same plain as God. Something God knows we shouldn't do from the beginning of mankind, we would harm ourselves with that power.

The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents. Although many skeptics have tried to portray God as an evil tyrant Who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, their arguments are without merit or any semblance of biblical credence. In the words of Jesus Christ, “Let the little children come to me.”

"How do I know that God is good, without succumbing to circular reasoning?"

Romans 5:8-9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Do you have a grudge against God? Why do you fight everyone on how God is not Good (your position). One way you can tell is search your own soul and you will know without doubt that this is a just universe in that If you run out in the middle of the highway and say I don't believe in trucks it doesn't mean you will not get run over. If you jump out of a window screaming "I don't believe in gravity" doesn't mean you will not get hurt. What matters is the truth. God does exist and He came as a man here on earth to pay for all of your sins.

If God wasn't just and good then lying and molesting would be acceptable things like in nature, right? You will miss out on all his glory because of your stubbornness. Please make this your priority number one in your life. Nothing is more important then our salvation. It doesn't matter if the entire world applause's your ways if it is despised by God what good is it?

The only way you will get to understand the Lord is by his grace towards you so there is not much more I can help you with. Search and find. If I or God for that matter would tell you not to run out into the street, would you be too proud to listen?

For Him,
Dan

G-man said...

Thanks for writing back again, Dan.

My mom has always said "I don't know how the Lord can love you more than I do, but I guess somehow He does."

Now, imagine that she was able to turn back time. She saw that I didn't listen to her, and I ran out in the street and was killed by that truck. She would never stop turning back time and trying to save me. Never would she think,

"Oh, why should I punish him with the goal of saving his life when he never listens to me? I'll just punish him forever now... just for the sake of inflicting pain and suffering on him, because he didn't listen to me."

You're telling me that God DOES just that. If so, He doesn't love me as much as even my mortal mother. She would never give up on me. She would never trifle with me either.

Not everybody believes God exists - that's why there are atheists - which means that there is no conclusive or even compelling evidence for God. If God truly wants all people to go to Heaven, why not reveal Himself directly so that nobody can have an excuse?

About children - the one example of a child going to Heaven doesn't make it the case that all do, or that they do automatically and the example in Psalms wasn't a special circumstance.

Matthew 18 says you must be humble like a child to enter Heaven, not that all children go to Heaven. Luke 18 tells us that only people who receive the kingdom of Heaven like a child - humbly - will receive it. Again, this doesn't say that all children go to Heaven.

Are you sure you're just not assuming a conclusion and trying to find verses to support it, Dan?

Have you demonstrated that God can look upon sin? Have you demonstrated that some humans are without sin? If not, then the logical syllogism stands and the conclusion necessarily follows: unborn children and infants are condemned to Hell.


"What matters is the truth"
_I know, but this is completely off-topic. We're talking about how I can know that God is good.

"If God wasn't just and good then lying and molesting would be acceptable things like in nature, right?"
_No, because they are detrimental to human beings.

Come on, Dan. If God is the definition of Good, then there's no point in using the word Good. Think about it: Somebody says 'how do I know that Dan is honest?' I say 'well, because Dan is the definition of honest. Everything he does is honest.'

If that's the case, then all we know about honesty is what Dan does. We can then conclude that all actions of Dan are honest, but does that actually tell us anything about you?

See, if "Honest" = "What Dan would do," then we can substitute terms. How do I know you are honest? When I say "Dan is honest," all I'm saying is "Dan does what Dan does."

So its a meaningless thing to say. Likewise, if "Good" = "What God would do," then all you're saying is "God does what God does, therefore God is good." It's circular reasoning.

When I call God 'all-powerful,' I know what powerful means, outside of God. Thus, saying that God is powerful means something. To call God 'good,' I need to understand what 'goodness' means, outside of God.

So I ask again, Dan, how do I know God is good? I won't trust in a higher power unless I know It is good! You, it seems, have absolutely no reason for why you believe God is good, you take it on faith. Sorry dude, I must have reasons for everything I believe.